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Benjamin John's avatar

This is honestly just silly. Let's first consider the quote from Augustine you yourself provide:

"If therefore what is given also has him it is given by as its origin, because it did not receive its proceeding from him from anywhere else, we must confess that the Father and the Son are the origin of the Holy Spirit; not two origins, but just as Father and Son are one God, and with reference to creation one creator and one lord, so with reference to the Holy Spirit they are one origin; but with reference to creation Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit are one origin, just as they are one creator and one lord."

You claim that this is about the economic procession, i.e. the Father and the Son sending the Spirit into creation. However, Augustine explicitly tells you that this isn't the case. Instead, the Saint *contrasts* the Father and Son being "one origin" "in reference to the Holy Spirit," and the Trinity being one principle "in reference to creation." In Augustine's theology, there's no action God can do within time that doesn't originate at once from all three divine persons; anything else would divide the one power or energy of the Godhead. Instead, the only true way one can speak of the Father and Son standing as a single principle is if it's within the eternal relations of the Trinity. Augustine makes this even more clear later on in De Trinitate, in what even Craig Truglia admits is "the most Florentine" passage in the Augustinian corpus:

"And let him who can understand, in that which the Son says, “As the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to have life in Himself,” not that the Father gave life to the Son already existing without life, but that He so begot Him apart from time, that the life which the Father gave to the Son by begetting Him is co-eternal with the life of the Father who gave it: let him, I say, understand, that as the Father has in Himself that the Holy Spirit should proceed from Him, so has He given to the Son that the same Holy Spirit should proceed from Him, and be both apart from time: and that the Holy Spirit is so said to proceed from the Father as that it be understood that His proceeding also from the Son, is a property derived by the Son from the Father. For if the Son has of the Father whatever He has, then certainly He has of the Father, that the Holy Spirit proceeds also from Him. But let no one think of any times therein which imply a sooner and a later; because these things are not there at all. How, then, would it not be most absurd to call Him the Son of both: when, just as generation from the Father, without any changeableness of nature, gives to the Son essence, without beginning of time; so procession from both, without any changeableness of nature, gives to the Holy Spirit essence without beginning of time? For while we do not say that the Holy Spirit is begotten, yet we do not therefore dare to say that He is unbegotten, lest any one suspect in this word either two Fathers in that Trinity, or two who are not from another. For the Father alone is not from another, and therefore He alone is called unbegotten, not indeed in the Scriptures, but in the usage of disputants, who employ such language as they can on so great a subject. And the Son is born of the Father; and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father principally, the Father giving the procession without any interval of time, yet in common from both [Father and Son]."

De Trinitate 15.47

Any temporal reading of this passage can be immediately dismissed since the Saint explicitly says that the “procession” in mind here occurs “apart from time,” and so the question becomes: what kind of eternal procession from the Son is Augustine talking about? Thankfully, he does not leave us guessing: “Just as generation from the Father, without any changeableness of nature, gives to the Son essence, without beginning of time; so procession from both, without any changeableness of nature, gives to the Holy Spirit essence without beginning of time.” I'm sorry, but how much more clear does Augustine need to be? The Spirit’s “procession from both” the Father and the Son refers to His receiving the divine “essence without beginning of time” from both. Even if your reading of Augustine's Trinitarian analogies was correct, it would not matter. At the end of the day, words have meaning, and if identifying the Spirit’s “procession” from the Father and Son with His receiving “essence” from the Father and Son does not refer to hypostatic causality, then we are just living in fantasy land.

You'll also notice that, according to this Doctor hailed by the 5th Ecumenical Council, the Spirit proceeding “from the Father principally” does not mean that He receives His essence from the Father alone, rather it means that the Father “giv[es] the procession without any interval of time” to the Son, such that the Spirit’s hypostatic procession occurs “in common from both” the Father and the Son. In other words, the reason why the Father is the monarch of the Godhead is not because He alone causes other divine Persons, but rather because He is the only one who has it in Himself to generate the Son and spirate the Spirit; the Son receives the latter from the Father and thus possesses it derivatively, thereby preserving the Father’s unique hypostatic properties.

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Michael's avatar

This is absolutely Top Notch Mr. samurai.

Can i have your email please?

I have a material from Florentine's Filioque, and i can show you that Florentine's Filioque is align with the Orthodox Teachings about the Procession of the Holy Spirit.

I hope we can discuss more about this, Sir

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